March 30, 2022

8th Layer Insights Review

8th Layer Insights Review

Today we are joined by Perry Carpenter from the 8th Layer Insights podcast.

Description: Get ready for a deep dive into what cybersecurity professionals often refer to as the "8th Layer" of security: HUMANS. Welcome to 8th Layer Insights (8Li). This podcast is a multidisciplinary exploration into how the complexities of human nature affect security and risk. Author, security researcher, and behavior science enthusiast Perry Carpenter taps experts for their insights and illumination. Topics include cybersecurity, psychology, behavior science, communication, leadership, and more


Things You're Doing Correct

  • The audio production is amazing.
  • The sidekick of "Carl" was creative
  • Asked some really good questions and stayed out of the guest's way.
  • As the episode isn't super long, the summaries at the end of a point signaled you were moving on to a new point.
  • Loved the insights and vulnerability
  • The website is clean and very useful
  • Very well put together


Things That Might Need Some Buffering

  • The show needs an intro to explain "Here is what we do here." You explain it later in the show. I would move it to the beginning of the show. The description really suggests a name change. Start with the end in mind, and look at who hires you to speak? If you're trying to spotlight soft skills, then tie them back to cyber security.
  • The name is somewhat inside baseball. Maybe add a tagline to make it easier to get found
  • I would’ve added a link to the sponsor and the steve king book in your show notes. I totally missed it in the sidebar.
  • You have a lot of voices and from time to time we're not sure who said what.They all sounded different but we forget who is who.


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David Jackson  0:01  
Today on the podcast review show, we're taking a look at eight-player insights.

Wayne Henderson  0:09  
Welcome to the podcast Review Show, hosted by radio veteran Eric Cay Johnston, from podcast talent and hall of fame podcaster Dave Jackson, from the school of podcasting.

Wayne Henderson  0:23  
Dave and Eric help you identify those things you are doing right? So you can do more of those and lose those things that don't deliver value to your audience. Join in on the conversation at podcast review

David Jackson  0:39  
Welcome to the podcast Review Show. I'm Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting comm. This is where we bring somebody on the show, we find those awesome things that you're doing so you can do more of those. And then we find those things that maybe just need a little bit of polish. And joining me to help identify those, you know, from the podcast talent coach. It is the one and only Eric K. Johnson. How's it going, Eric? 

Erik K. Johnson  1:00  
Hey, Dave, things are great. Back in the saddle. Again, looking forward to another great show tonight on the show. We have Perry carpenter of eigth-layer insights. Joining us tonight Perry, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks so much for having me looking for some good advice. Absolutely. Looking forward to digging into your show and giving you some feedback on a fantastic show. I love listening to it. And we're looking forward to digging into it tonight. 

David Jackson  1:23  
Yeah, what inspired you to start the show?

Perry Carpenter  1:26  
 Yeah, so for me, this was the show that I was looking for, for about three or four years. I've always been a big fan of podcasts, especially immersive podcasts, narrative nonfiction, Freakonomics, radio, radio, lab, Planet money, all those kinds of things, as well as storytelling podcasts. And I kept thinking in the cybersecurity field, which is where I work, I was waiting for that show to come up. And there's, there are one or two really good examples that do that. From a let's look at a hacking story until just the story about that, you know, Jack reciter, at darknet diaries does a fantastic job with that. But what I wanted is a show that really explores the psychology, humanity, and how that interfaces with the technology types of problems and cybersecurity problems that we have. And nobody was making that. And I figured, hey, I've got a little bit of an audio background I used to do recording and things like that, from a music perspective. Maybe I can put that together and definitely know a lot of great people that could be guests. And so let's, let's see what happens. But together a pilot network was happy enough that they said, Hey, we love to have you with. With us, we found a sponsor, and we're able to go from there. But learning every day, every episode is me trying to solve a different problem with what I don't know yet. 

Erik K. Johnson  2:44  
Perry, how are you measuring success for your podcast? That's a great question. The obvious thing for me is like downloads because I put 20 to 30 hours in each episode. So for me, there has to be some payoff in knowing that people are out there actually listening. The thing that I really love that I see, success is when somebody shares a comment about it on social media, or Twitter or LinkedIn. Or when somebody gives a review, which, you know, for the number of downloads I have, I still don't have a whole bunch of reviews. But I'd love to see that word of mouthpiece pick up some that would really clinched it for me of saying I'm doing something significant when I know that people are recommending it, and they're willing to spend 45 minutes to, you know, an hour and 10 minutes of their time listening to it. 

Erik K. Johnson  3:32  
And are you using it as a hobby podcast? Or is it a podcast to drive a business? And what do you want your audience to do when the episodes are over? 

Perry Carpenter  3:41  
So for me, this is a brand personal brand awareness podcast. So there's a little bit of hobby in that I love exploring the audio space and seeing what I can do that's different. So it has to be mentally stimulating for me, I get to tell great stories from people that I know and also get to meet people that would otherwise never give me the time of day, which is a great thing as well. That's the perfect podcasting is a perfect forum for that. But for me what success looks like the end of this and what my personal goals are, or that increase brand awareness, and then ultimately be to be able to break out a little bit of just the cybersecurity bucket that I live in. And so with that, I do a lot of speaking just about the human condition, and the psychology of decision making and all of that. So there's a cybersecurity circle that I live in very cleanly, that I see an outside circle of anybody that's interested in cybersecurity and behavior, but I love to be touching more on the third circle, which is just people that are interested in why we do the things that we do from a humanity perspective.

David Jackson  4:50  
Got it, and then the description. Is it ready for a deep dive into what cybersecurity professionals often refer to as the eight layer of have security, which I'm glad that's in the description because I didn't look at the description before I listened to your episode. And I'm like, what is that? Yeah, I'm like, Ah, I just pictured a really big cake. And I got hungry. Yeah, the the AI layer of security as humans. Welcome to the eighth layer insights. This podcast is multi disciplinary exploration into how the complexities of human nature affects security and risk. Author, security researcher and behavior science enthusiast Perry carpenter haps. experts for their insights and elimination. Topics include cybersecurity psychology, behavior, science, communication, leadership, and more. So, now that we've uncovered what eight layer is, is, is that something that your target audience would be searching for? Or is that more of a inside-baseball reference? 

Perry Carpenter  5:51  
So most of the people in the cybersecurity field, I understand what you're talking about, when you say eighth layer, it is not the search term that they would put into Apple podcasts or Spotify, they wouldn't say I'm looking for an eighth layer podcast, what they'd be looking for is human side of security. But a lot of the good names for those have already been taken. There's a human factor, security podcasts that's done well, there's a ri colon, human, the human factor. So a lot of those were already taken. And within my field, there was enough of a wrecking record recognition of what the eighth layer is, there are the keywords of humans and cybersecurity, so I figured that it would be okay. But there is a little bit of a barrier there that I'm hitting, for sure. And especially as I go out to those other concentric circles, 

David Jackson  6:41  
yeah, when I get ready to I'm going to hit play here in just a second. But when I went and looked at what was listed, actually in, like Apple, which is, you know, that description is going to go everywhere, what I would do is I would add a tagline, eighth layer insights, dash, you know, exploration into the blah, blah, blah, and somehow put the words that people are searching for, I think that might have because that was the biggest thing that confused me. I was like, yeah, it is. Just I had it was one of those where I'm like, I mean, look, I'm the guy from the school of podcasting, I do logical weight loss. All my podcasts are really like, just smack you in the head easy to get in that one. I just was like, Huh. As I said, I think really big cake. 

Perry Carpenter  7:25  
So and to be honest, I've wondered at some point and tell me the pros and cons of this. If a name change if I can find a great name at some point that automatically sells the idea of a name change makes sense? Or if that causes more confusion.

David Jackson  7:41  
 Now I've seen people triple their download. So I had a guy that named his show full time. And I go, how do you spell that? He goes F O time and I go when I earn the letters fo I can think of some things that that aren't exactly PG for that. And nice. He said, No, no, it's funny. It's cool. My audience will get it. Well, the problem is his audience wasn't searching for fo time. And he came back about a month and a half later he goes, I want to change the name to ham radio 360. And we did and the numbers went right through the roof because it had the phrase ham radio in it. But I still don't know what fo time is. But it definitely and it's super easy. It's I always tell people think of Kentucky Fried Chicken versus KFC, you're just doing a rebrand. And you're chained by your description and your artwork. And you're, you're good to go. So let's go ahead and we're going to listen to the intro. And this is actually kind of a long intro, your intro is actually in three sections, you have to listen to the first part. And then you played another two and a half minutes, clips that was really well produced. But it's a tease. And then you actually tell us what's in the show. So we're gonna listen to this first part.

Perry Carpenter  8:45  
This is a cyber wire podcast. Hi,

Perry Carpenter  8:49  
I'm Perry Carpenter, and you're listening to eighth-layer insights. Okay, so go with me on this. Take your memory back to a time when you're making something when you're creating something, and it just felt like everything was going right. Maybe this was something that you were doing as a hobby, like painting or a woodworking project. Or maybe it was something that you were doing for your job, like designing a PowerPoint presentation or writing a document. And now recall that feeling of almost effortless creation, you probably approach that Canvas or the block of wood or your computer with a sense of excitement and anticipation. You knew that you were about to be able to express yourself in a unique way to give life to an idea to put a little spark of yourself out into the world that would persist past that initial moment of creation. And that moment was life-giving to you. Okay, that part of the experiment felt pretty good. But now remember a time when you had to create something, but you just couldn't seem to find your way into it. You couldn't get started. And instead of that anticipation, you approach the canvas with dread. That block of wood seemed unyielding, your computer cursor sat there, unmoving, yet slowly blinking, blinking and mocking you, seeming to tell you over and over again, that you don't have it, whatever it is, in you today. This topic of creativity is really interesting to me. Right now, I'm in the middle of several projects, including a book project and this podcast. And each of these projects requires me to find, or maybe manufacture, whatever it is that creative spark that allows us to capture ideas, and then express those ideas in interesting ways. So that's what today's episode is all about. It's about creativity. And to help us tackle this topic, we'll be hearing from four people who have made creating new things, interesting things, their life's work, we'll hear from Jack reciter, Faith McQuinn, Tom Buck, and Sam crashy.

David Jackson  11:22  
And so, at that point, we are about two and a half minutes in. And well, first of all, I still don't know what eight, eigth-layer is, if you think about it, is, first of all, the production on this is amazing. The soundscaping the sound when I looked at your audio, I was like, Well, that was easy. There's nothing to determine. Eric, what were your thoughts?

Erik K. Johnson  11:48  
I love the production values of the open. I love the music behind you. I love the storytelling. But my first note, as I listened to the beginning was the show needs an introduction. If you look at studies, they show that the average podcast listener, when they discover your show, they'll give your episode anywhere between 90 seconds and a handful of minutes to determine whether or not they're going to stick with the show. Or they're going to tune out and go find something else to listen to. And the beginning of your show needs to tell your listener, this shows exactly what you're looking for. And this show is for you. And up to this point in the episode, I know we're going to talk about creativity. But with regard to who? Who are we creating the content for what is the purpose of the podcast overall. And as we roll into it, I was a little confused there. I thought that the intro was nice. You piqued my curiosity regarding creativity and putting me in the moment. I just felt it needed a little something before that saying, welcome to the podcast. Here's what we do here. This is, this is the kind of food we serve at our restaurant. Thanks for coming in. Now let's take a look at the menu and see what we're going to eat tonight. With and I was just walking in blind.

David Jackson  13:07  
And that's actually the next clip I was gonna play which is so that we just sat through two minutes of that were at the end, okay, we're talking about creativity today. I was like, okay, cool. Like, I don't know where I'm going, then you play it again, it was a really well-produced montage of clips. And as I was listening to it again, later tonight, I was like, we actually end up hearing all those clips again. And so somebody said, and it's weird because you hate to do that, because it's such a well-produced area. But I was like, if I was going to speed up the intro, you've kind of already teased me here. And then with this,

Perry Carpenter  13:39  
on today's show, we talked about creativity, what it is, what it looks like, and what to do when you feel stuck. Welcome to eighth layer insights. This podcast is a multidisciplinary exploration into the complexities of human nature, and how those complexities impact everything from why we think the things that we think, to why we do the things that we do, and how we can all make better decisions every day. This is eighth layer insights, season two, episode one. I'm hearing carpenter.

David Jackson  14:16  
And the thing I like about that is you have a so that you can so many people forget to do that. It's like the goal here is so that we can make better decisions and so many people are like, welcome to blah, blah, blah, where we blah, blah, blah, and you're like, Okay, why are we doing that? So you can write better disappears? Yeah.

Erik K. Johnson  14:35  
Yeah, I love that intro part right there. I think this intro of the show, they're welcome to a player insights. I would maybe like to see them flipped around. So today, today on Athelia insights, we talk all about creativity. And we're going to talk to four great individuals about it. And, you know, ask that real poignant curiosity question that gets me to say, Huh, wonder what that's all about? And then go into this, what it's all about? Yeah, the issue I have with this little segment right here is, to me, this doesn't scream cybersecurity, this screams your next concentric circle out where you want to be. You want to be all things like why humans do what they do, why we think what we think. And so if we go back to earlier, to that a player insights conversation, I would highly recommend, name change, because this creativity discussion you have on this episode, and the way you set up what the podcast is all about in the multidisciplinary exploration into the complexities of human nature that screams something completely different than cybersecurity and epilayer. So I might recommend that, yeah, there's,

Perry Carpenter  15:56  
and I can, I can tell you some i Excuse slash justification forever not doing it yet. Because this is something I wrestle with a lot. As soon as I make that explicit change, then I do lose some of the cybersecurity audience unless they know me, just for me, which a lot of them already do. But here's the thing in the cybersecurity field, a lot of cybersecurity people know that they need soft skills. And so they're looking for things like this, but their ability to search for it and find it is stunted, somehow, they don't necessarily know how to do it. So you have to kind of build that bridge there. And say, this is a sorry, cybersecurity person talking about this other thing. And then they go for it. But it's, it's, it's something I wrestle with for sure.

Erik K. Johnson  16:47  
Well, let's start with the end in mind, Perry, if you're looking to build your personal brand, get noticed for your books get hired for more speaking engagements. Who are those people that hire you to speak? Or who would go to that, that event coordinator and say, You really need to hire Perry carpenter he needs to speak at our event. I mean, are those people cybersecurity people?

Perry Carpenter  17:12  
Primarily, yeah, it's gonna be a cybersecurity person or somebody on a board of directors or something like that. So

Erik K. Johnson  17:20  
then what I might recommend is you take these soft skills like this creativity conversation we have on this episode, and relate it back to the cybersecurity professional. Yeah. So if you're working in cybersecurity, here's how you can take that creativity and use it to your advantage in your career and in your workforce and your workplace.

Perry Carpenter  17:39  
And usually, to be honest, usually, I do that a lot better than I did on this episode. But what I think I made a little bit in the confessional. Now, I think I made a little bit of a mistake on this episode, mostly because I was overwhelmed with other priorities at the time that I talked about at the very beginning. But I made a very basic mistake of assuming that my audience was my audience that there's, you know, less new people come into it. Because I've tied that back so many other times that I don't want to be going, Oh, and here's this other thing that I've already told you five times before. Let me go ahead and wrap that in. Season One had a lot of that. But the more recent episode that I'm dropping tomorrow, has that explicit tie in throughout it a lot more as well. Yeah, we

Erik K. Johnson  18:29  
always have new new listeners coming to our podcast, Dave always makes it a point to remind podcasters that when people discover your show, they listen to your most recent episode, they don't go back and listen to episode one to catch up. It's not like we're watching The Sopranos. We need the backstory. We're listening to today's episode, exactly. As you would even if you had structured this, where that beginning exercise that we go through Dave, how long was that two and a half minutes or so? Yeah, even if you had followed that with this intro right here, it would have gotten me into the content a lot faster. But actualities the clips that you take from all of the interviews and you plug in there. I counted them Perry there 14 of those actualities from the interviews, over two and a half minutes and and told a bit of a story but not having heard the rest of the podcast. I wasn't really sure where those were going. And a lot of times we use those two teas what's coming up. But 14 of them just got me confused of where we were going. And we didn't play those here today. But the two and a half minutes of your intro exercise and then the two and a half minutes of the 14 actuality clips from the interviews now gets us to five minutes before this introduction part comes in and that's where I don't know that I would have stuck around all the way to realize that this podcast was all about the human complexities. I don't know that I would have gotten there.

David Jackson  20:05  
All I needed was the one teacher that said, Yeah, I used to teach and now I'm a full time YouTuber. And I was like, I'm in. That's it. That's all I'm, I'm ready to hear that story. So yeah,

Erik K. Johnson  20:15  
there's been studies done on, on endorsements on the back of book dust covers on the back of books. And how many are the is the right number? Should I put 135 1012 117? What is the number? And I've seen a study that said any more than three people stop reading. So you know, they want to read a couple that are kind of different in opinion. But after you get through three opinions, you're pretty much reading the same opinion it with different words. And in those 14 actualities. We started talking about creativity, I was a teacher, now I'm a YouTuber, or I, you know, I was hired to do this. Now I'm doing that. And so you have four guests. And if each one of them had given me something, then I would have been ready to get into the interviews. But once you got into 10 and 11, I'm trying to figure out okay, which guy is this? Which girl? Is that? Who's? Who? Which position? Was this one playing? And I started losing track. Okay,

David Jackson  21:13  
that's good. 

David Jackson  21:14  
There was some cool creativity smiled when I heard this because I think every podcaster one point, invents a sidekick. So this case, it's Carl, and we're just going to play a small clip of this. You see, oh, first of all, Carl is his his audio engineer. And Carl is in a booth with his headphones off sound. 

8th Layer Clip  21:34  
You see, he can't hear me. Hold on. Carl, what are you doing now? A text. It says, Sorry, dot dot dot can't hear you. Booth is soundproof. So put on your headphones.

David Jackson  22:02  
And so this goes on and on. And that was creative. I guess if I only had my job on this job on the show, is to be impatient. And so we haven't read well, and we haven't really got there. And when I listened to when we do the show, I listen to your show probably like two and a half times. And when I listen to Carl again, I was like, Okay, so the takeaway from that was, creativity comes in many places in many forms at any time, kind of, and I thought could, you know, the Perry of just quoted the Ford quote, and gone on. And we would have gotten to the content quicker. And I was like, Yeah, but that was kind of cool. It was a good soundscaping. And I could, I could picture the guy in the booth with a headphones off. So it was a cool theory of the mind. I was just like, and I was trying to think I don't think there was any time when I was like, I am like I said, I'm always impatient so that the pace is always a little slow for me. But Eric, what did you think of I liked

Erik K. Johnson  22:55  
it. I liked Carl a lot. I loved. I love the texting back and forth. Yeah, when I hear that sort of thing. I my mind, I'm going Did he really have enough time to text all of that, that he was saying? And it was close? I mean, it was close. You were you know, Carl could have texted Yes, still can't hear you and comes up on your phone and you have that conversation. I thought it was a great. I'm like why are we talking to Carl and then all of a sudden Carl texts you the I got my feet up because Henry Ford said his best man had his feet up and the article that he sends you and you kind of scan it and I thought it was a great setup to the bit like anybody can say I found this article on the internet the other day of Henry Ford paying his guy millions of dollars. In on yon I've heard you know, that's, that would there was no creativity about that. And I love the way that you brought Carl into it.

David Jackson  23:45  
Especially on a show about creativity that actually makes more sense, right? I think I could have

Erik K. Johnson  23:49  
gone a little faster. Maybe I'm not gonna be that picky about it. But I thought I thought it was the footsteps and the pounding on the door and the soundproof booth. And the whole thing I thought was, was well done, well put together. I love the audio effects. I can see why it takes you 20 or 30 hours to put a show together. You know, NPR does these kinds of shows. And they have a they have a team of like eight producers working 40 hours a week to produce episodes. So kudos to you. You put together a fantastic show. I was about halfway through it. And I sent Dave a note and said, this is this show is put together incredibly, incredibly well very magazine NPR style. You do a fantastic job of just editing it and putting it all together and keeping the story moving forward through the whole thing. And this was a nice little setup for it.

David Jackson  24:40  
I've got a nice little clip of this is just him moving from kind of one aspect, one guest and he's moving into the other one and it's just a quick clip.

8th Layer Clip  24:49  
I'm new to the podcasting world and so everything is still a bit of a mystery to me. And I love hearing about other people's journeys, what motivates them how they got their start. with their processes, and what lessons they've learned along the way. My day job is as a video editor and writer, but my full time hobby is filmmaking and writing and producing audio dramas. That's the voice of faith. McQuinn faith is a well known podcast creator and storyteller, and quick disclosure, Faith's day job is working in the content creation team for no before, which is also my employer and a sponsor of the show.

David Jackson  25:31  
And so the first part I liked about that was the vulnerability. The fact like, look, I'm still kind of learn to this podcasting thing. And then you hear all the production, you're like, I don't know, he definitely got the production down, holy cow. And it was just, again, a nice flow. And then that's really an abbreviated version. Every time you introduce somebody, you kept bringing in different aspects. The teacher, I think, was the teacher that like when you found him, he had a 20,000 subscribers. And then by the time something else, you had 80,000 subscribers, and I was like, Whoa, that's a was a big jump in numbers.

Erik K. Johnson  26:03  
So I love that part as well. I put a little note there that very NPR style, the way that they kind of bring it back and forth. But it's, you don't introduce her like, here she is. And then she talks and now she was and then she talks and, you know, it's the creativity that you enter, we've been through this is just, it's amazing. I love it.

Perry Carpenter  26:23  
I'll tell you the selfishness behind some of this as well is, especially in the cybersecurity field. And I think this is probably prevalent across all the different domains that are out there is there are so many podcasts where it's like two guys in a pizza box, just talking back and forth. And there's not a lot. And then the the host is trying to outdo the guests, so many times of injecting their viewpoint and taking up a lot of their guests time. I feel like when I did when I do the production elements, it puts the spotlight clearly on me. without it feeling like I'm competing for the mind space or competing against the guest, I shift the spotlight onto the guests, I make them look and sound as great as they can. And then I shift it back to me. And there's a cognitive disconnect that happens there where it's not like, Oh, now pairs competing with this person. It's just the format of the show.

David Jackson  27:16  
I just feel like you're the guide. Like we're gonna go through this topic. And here, let me walk you over to Jack. Okay, now, let me walk you over to so and so. And you know, and then you had some really good questions. I have a quick clip here of a great question. I thought

8th Layer Clip  27:30  
in the writing world, they always say show don't tell. So how do you translate that into the audio world? Because before you did cover that with a narrator, you told because you couldn't figure out how to show that audibly? How are you recreating the sound design in such a way that you're not doing dialogue exposition that's describing something that would be obvious that nobody would ever describe? So I have gotten much, much better at descriptive dialogue. So I can pretty much slide some descriptions and dialogue that I wouldn't normally do. And I just

David Jackson  28:03  
thought that was great. Because here she is, she's a filmmaker, and she switched to audio, and you're like, Okay, so you've already talked about telling a story and video and how it's much more expensive than you thought? And you're like, Okay, well, how are you telling a story and audio? And I just thought that was great. The other thing you did, and I was worried at first is you ask the question, and then you started to give background, like, here's why I'm asking the question. And then you turn around and finished it up with a question because so many times, and this is something Eric, gleaned from Eric is people will ask the question, and then they'll give this like, two minute like, here's why I'm asking the question. And here's all the background by the time they finally get to answer the question. They can't remember what the question. Yes. So you did a nice job of bringing it back round to a question.

Erik K. Johnson  28:46  
The thing I like about the way you do this is it tells that story and continues to move forward, which is one of the most difficult things in putting a show like this together, you have to go and conduct four different interviews. And then you have to figure out what the storyline is. And then use parts of those interviews to support the story to get to the conclusion. And that's really what takes the longest of putting something like this together is figuring out how the parts of the interview all work together to tell a comprehensive story. By the time you get to the end of the episode. And I think I thought you did a great job mixing in questions like this where you're actually asking a question of the guest, along with those parts where you just fill in the gaps in between the actualities to help tell the story as a narrator, though, you did a great job doing that.

Perry Carpenter  29:41  

David Jackson  29:42  
The other thing I thought was cool is you had talked to Jack and I'm forgetting this woman's name, faith, faith. So you've talked to faith and Jack and you know, 20 minutes into the show at this point, and I love the fact that you did this.

8th Layer Clip  29:55  
And so with both Jack and faith, we see something interesting. They both set out To fulfill this need within themselves, they had a drive. And they both accepted, the things didn't have to be exactly perfect right away, they didn't allow this idea of perfection, to paralyze them into not creating something, they decided to make the thing that they wanted to see out in the world, they just got started. And they dedicated themselves to improving to solving for those areas where they weren't as strong. And now, let's hear from another creator.

David Jackson  30:31  
And so what I love about this is I think this episode was around 15 minutes long, is, you know, people aren't gonna remember all 50 minutes of it, but you're giving them that little summary is kind of like, Alright, I'm gonna walk away from here thinking, remember, it doesn't have to be perfect, because that was a great point when he made it, and you're just like, hey, that's one. That's a good one to remember, when you're getting stuck, because you're trying to be creative.

Erik K. Johnson  30:55  
Yeah, it's like right here, we're going into Chapter Two now, like, here's the summary of what we just learned. Here's the how those two kind of interweave and now let's go into chapter two. And we can kind of learn how the next guest ties in with the two we just talked with.

David Jackson  31:11  
The other thing I thought was cool is I love the fact. And this is not that you wouldn't do this. But you are showing the wrinkles in some cases, and you're letting you're making sure that you're not saying hey, create being creative is simple and fun. It's easy. Just you know, it sit in a quiet room by yourself for a second. And so I love this clip, because I was like, Yes, that's the truth.

8th Layer Clip  31:32  
It became a great creative project, it helped me become a better media teacher. And I like the channel so much, I just kept doing it. And after about a year, it started organically generating some revenue, which is not something I intended for it to do at all when it first started. And that was great. And

David Jackson  31:49  
so that for me is I'm walking around listen to some Mike Amen. Here's a guy with a once again set out to not really make money. He just wanted to do something for himself. And lo and behold, a year later, it starts to take off. And I was like, yeah, not six weeks, not six months, it takes longer to to build your your audience. And another one that that jumped out for me again, that I was just like, it's the when somebody says something in an interview, and you kind of go Oh, wow, that's that was a great thought. And I don't know if it's dopamine or what the kicks in, but have kind of the summary of this. And I think this is Tom, talking about the different angles of watching a leaf fall from a tree? And I think this was that was that was Sam Sam. Yeah. And to me, it was just because he was talking about if it's a physicist, he's going to talk about this and somebody else is going to look at the velocity of the leaf and then somebody else's that. And so this was kind of him summing that all up and why we need to think differently. 

8th Layer Clip  32:53  
The question I had is, how would you look at that leaf, if you're a physicist, a chemist and an artist at the same time, you would look at that leaf through three different perspectives, you may be able to see something no one else can see come up with a connection, no one else has made an ad solve a problem no one else has solved. That, to me is exciting. Because I support generalism more than being a specialist. I think we have too many specialists in the world. And I think generalism allows us to have that lens to see things from multiple angles simultaneously, instead of being fixated and limited by one angle,

David Jackson  33:30  
when you can get your guests to say, I think it's kind of cool, because they're like, this is my opinion. Here's why. And he said they're very not like, you know, charging forcefully, but was like Doggone it. This is my opinion. And this is why I think we benefit from this air to Jeremy thoughts on that particular section.

Erik K. Johnson  33:47  
I love that guy's voice and I could listen to him talk all day. Yeah,

Perry Carpenter  33:51  
he has the voice.

Erik K. Johnson  33:53  
Perry, I don't know if you'd purposefully did this. But one of the things that I really enjoy about this episode is the four people that you interview. And then yourself. So five of you all have unique and distinct voices. And so you can follow along and know who's playing which position. So I know when that guy is talking, you know, and I know when the younger guys talking, and I know when you're talking and I know when she's talking like I I can picture who's playing which position. You know, it's frustrating when you're listening to a radio show and both guys sound alike in your life. I don't know who's who. And I don't know if you did that intentionally when you recruited these interviews, but I appreciate the fact that they all have a little different timbre into their voice and you can pick out which character is which.

Perry Carpenter  34:45  
So I do try to do that as much as possible. When it's not possible. I'll do a verbal lower third. And so when somebody comes back in if there's been enough space between the last time that they spoke, I'll just say that's tombak perfect.

David Jackson  35:00  
Nice. Yeah, you'll Harry Carpenter, and then you play. Yeah. And then you get out. There was one thing you did that it was like, oh, and I just did an episode on this is you asked a really good question. And then made it mobile in this case you made it yes or no? And here's the question,

8th Layer Clip  35:18  
well, I need this point to happen. But how do I get to that point? And does it make sense. And then I will go days and days of trying to make this one page or this two sentences make sense. And I get stuck in small details a lot. Which is something I'm still trying to figure out how to work past. So what what has worked for you to get past that before? Do you just finally kind of hit the point where things click and then you move on?

David Jackson  35:40  
And so that was a great question, what do you do to move forward? Stop? And then let her come up with a question. So it's not like a deal breaker. But it was one, I was like, Oh, I just talked about this. Because I have a bad habit of that too, especially if my guest starts to think about it. If like, how do you move forward through that? And they go, ah, and there's this awkward silence and you go, Well, do you do this? Do you do that too. And it's like, when you let them sit there in stew on it a bit, realize that a three, they're gonna come back with a really good answer, because they had to think about it, or be, you're gonna chop out that silence because it wasn't that good.

Erik K. Johnson  36:18  
When the silence happens, your audience leans in, because they're anticipating what is to come. And if you jump in and start offering those multiple choice options, you steal that from your audience.

David Jackson  36:30  
Yeah. And I've been guilty of all use that of of inserting silence when I want to create that to in the editing process, and I 

Perry Carpenter  36:39  
Oh, I give a heads up to all my guests. Before I hit record, I say, Hey, here's how I'm going to do I may flip some of your quotes, I may insert silence, but you will, the meaning of what you're saying will never be misrepresented. But I will be creative in the presentation of what you're saying.

David Jackson  36:56  
And another little nugget jumped out at me again, you had the one we're about it doesn't have to be perfect. And this and that. And when this one I love this is a guy had 700,000 people on Instagram. And I love this line. 

8th Layer Clip  37:08  
One of the things that stopped me from growing on Instagram for a very long time. And I was stuck for at least over a year at 6000. before exploding is I was very meticulous about the content. And and I realized that if perfection is my prison, mediocrity is my escape. And I just decided to embrace mediocrity. I was

David Jackson  37:29  
just like, that needs to be a bumper sticker. Like any does, he has a little voice, holy cow. The one thing I forgot the clip. And I know Eric, you had made a note about there was somewhere in there where he think it was a female was giving actual, here's what I do steps.

Erik K. Johnson  37:46  
Yeah, there was actually a handful of was a nice little montage there toward the end where they started giving actions, examples of actions we could take to be more creative. And I think the younger guy he said all you know, I have an app on my phone where when I get ideas, I jot them down in there. And she said she was given ideas of what she did to help her be creative. And I thought that was great. As we're getting toward the end, we've taken the first 40 minutes of the episode or whatever it was to explain the why behind the creativity and why it's important in all aspects of our life. And now we're getting into the how, like, how can we be creative and they gave some great examples of what they do to spark creativity in the various aspects of their life. And I thought that was great. It kind of gave me as a listener, something to take away that I could use rather than just information. Yeah, it was.

David Jackson  38:41  
It was kind of less theory, not that it was all theory, but it was like, here are some, you know, here's a couple of resources. I know she mentioned a Stephen King book up all the things was like, here's some things you can do when you're done with this episode. And I just looked up and I was like, I did not pull that clip. But I remember it was Eric and made a note that hey, this is actually really good stuff. And it's it's more than just things that make you go home. It's like here's something you can do and and try when you get done with this episode. And so, before we hop on to check out your website, Eric, shall we go ahead and play the ending here and then we'll jump over to the website.

Erik K. Johnson  39:16  
Yeah, there was one other mention that I wanted to throw in. I mentioned that I love the the differences in the voices of the people that you were interviewing. There was one section, right before they gave those examples, where you strung together a whole slew of their actualities and they would just start chiming in it. It was very reminiscent of what we sat through at the beginning of the show when you had all of those clips. And I really started to lose track of who was who and and why we were stringing all of these actualities together. It to me it felt like Well, I have all of these on the editing room floor, and I haven't used them yet. So let's just kind of piece them all together and shove them in here in this five minute segment of the show. Because I, you were telling me a nice story up to about 35 or 40 minutes, and then all sudden here comes this flurry of of actualities from them. And I lost the conversation part of it. And I kind of got lost and then you brought it back around about 45 is where they started giving me some examples of how I can use the creativity. But for a second there, I just kind of got lost of Where where are we and what are we doing? Who are these people like they're all just coming at me.

Perry Carpenter  40:41  
I'll go back and listen to that again. I don't doubt that I did that though.

Erik K. Johnson  40:44  
Because right about 40 minutes into the episode. But then we brought it back around nicely and tied it up gave me some actions that we could take and then and then got into the close of the show here.

David Jackson  40:57  
Which sounds like this.

Perry Carpenter  40:58  
That brings us to the end of today's show, I hope you found the discussion both interesting and useful. One thing that stood out to me was how each of our guests found ways to lean into their curiosity. They also use their creativity in a way that helped to address some kind of issue that was going on. For faith. It was that she found an outlet that could bring our stories to life that wasn't as costly and resource intensive as film. For Jack, it's that he really wanted to hear cybersecurity hacker stories that dug into the details that didn't just stop at the headline, but told the full story in an immersive way. He wanted that podcast to exist, but it didn't. And so he realized that he needed to create it. For Tom, it was the desire to express his own ideas and passions for audio and video gear in a meaningful way, but also in a way that would help others. And for Sam, it's the desire to learn from people who have lived extraordinary lives or who have acquired extraordinary skills. He wanted ways to capture those insights and use them to help other people. For me, I wanted to create this podcast because I kept waiting for someone to make something like Freakonomics Radio or radio lab or This American Life. But to do it in a way that the intersection between cybersecurity and humanity, I kept looking for that show for a couple of years, and I couldn't find it. So I figured I'd give it a go. Hopefully, you like it. And with that, thanks so much for listening. And thank you to my guests, Jack reciter, Faith McQuinn, Tom, Buck, and Sam crashing. I've loaded up the shownotes with all the relevant links and references to everything we covered today, as well as links to where you can find out more about today's guests. If you've been enjoying eighth layer insights, and you want to know how you can help make the show successful, there are two big ways that you can do so. And both are super important. First, if you haven't yet, please go ahead and take just a couple seconds and head over to Apple podcasts and rate and consider leaving a review that helps others who stumble on the show have the confidence that this show is worth their most valuable resource their time. The second big way you can help is by telling someone about the show. Word of mouth referrals are really the lifeblood of helping people find good podcasts. Oh, and also, if you haven't yet, go ahead and subscribe or follow wherever you'd like to get your podcasts. If you want to connect with me, feel free to reach out on LinkedIn or Twitter or clubhouse. I'd love to connect. The show was written, recorded sound designed and edited by

David Jackson  43:52  
me. And I'm going to fade that out because he has a team of people that worked on this, but it definitely when I hear all the names at the end. It's like wow, this is this is not somebody, you know, with a $19 microphone in the basement. So a couple things I liked about that is, first of all, the intersection of cybersecurity, cybersecurity and humanity. That might be your tagline. And when I heard that, I love the fact that you started off saying here's what I liked. And that's where if you want to promote yourself more with your books and your speaking and things of that nature. We need to have a little more you in this. It's great that you're you're really spotlighting and letting your guests there, but because when you start that I was like oh, it's his, you know, he's doing what I call the Jerry Springer where you're kind of wrapping it up at the end. And so that's the part that jumped out at me and I love the fact that you did not say please leave me a review. It helps me get found because that's an accurate it's exactly what you said it's it's social proof. And so Eric, any other thoughts on the ending?

Erik K. Johnson  44:58  
I'm gonna take the ending in three parts the first part where you wrapped up the show, and your big takeaways I loved it kind of did a nice job kind of wrapping up the story, put a nice little bow on the end of it gave me nice little takeaways and sent me on my way, I loved that part about it. When you got into the housekeeping stuff, I agree with Dave, I like that you gave an actual benefit to going and giving me a review. It wasn't to help people find us, it's when people do find us. They know it's good, and it's for them, which I appreciated there. The thing that I did not like about that close is that we as humans, we don't want to be wrong, we don't want to make the wrong decision. And if you give us too many decisions, we're not going to make any decision because we don't want to make the wrong decision. And you've asked us to check out the show notes, rate and review the show, tell somebody about the show, subscribe to the show, follow the show, connect on LinkedIn, Twitter, and clubhouse. And I'm out, I'm not doing any of it because I don't want to be wrong. So I would figure out which one you want your listeners to do most. And make that your call to action on this particular episode, you can rotate your calls to action through various episodes. On this one, you might say, you know, go review us because it helps people understand what we're all about that we're actually a legitimate show. Next week, you might talk about, hey, if you want to connect with us, here's the various ways to connect with us. But I would make it a single one, you might put a page on your website, which puts all of that stuff on there. So then you say, Hey, if you want to find out more about the show and connect with us just go to a player insights comm slash about and it's all right there. So there's only really one call to action for them. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Then when you got out of that you rolled into those credits, I thought the credits were pretty solid. That was badass, because it made me feel like this is a JIT professional show, like you're talking about your sound design. And here's who wrote the song and, and all of that great stuff. I mean, even if you were just saying, you know, my cat caretaker is Suzy Smith, and you know, it just made it sound like, you know, we have this whole department that produces the show, where the guy that wrote the music probably wrote the music and gave it to you once. And he's probably never had anything more to do with the show other than writing the music when he's, but he's still a part of the credits, which I thought were really cool. I thought it was pretty

Perry Carpenter  47:27  
Yeah. So the thought there is, if you if you listen to any other episodes, some of these I do skits, and I bring in voice actors and do all that. So I've started giving credit to the voice actors that are there, even though I'm still paying them as well. This is a labor of love for me. So I spend money on every episode makes it sound legit. But yeah, I give credits to them. I do have somebody that will help me do some background research. And I'd give credit to that person. And then everything else is just personal stuff. So the guy that wrote it. He's a legit composer. I really love his stuff, and want to give credit there and then every episode has its own individual artwork. And so I give around to the folks that do that as well.

Erik K. Johnson  48:09  
Yeah, your artwork is pretty cool, too. You did have music for the sake of music at the very end of the show. And I'm surprised Dave didn't mention that. Is that

Perry Carpenter  48:17  
my pay? I paid a decent amount for my own pain of song. I'm gonna play the

Erik K. Johnson  48:23  
you're gonna hear it all if I have to sit here earlier with you. Yeah, that was awesome. I love that overall period, I thought the show was solid, you do a fantastic job. You know, being new to the podcasting world as you say. It's you do a fantastic job putting it all together telling the story, making it feel like a legit highly produced NPR show, I'd put your show up against any of them. Your writing could tighten up a little bit more with the actualities and way they come in. But overall, the way it's put together, and the way that you weave the story through all four of the characters that come in, throughout the story, I thought was solid, you're doing really good quality work, I enjoyed it. Appreciate it.

David Jackson  49:08  
And that leads us over to the website. And I gotta say your show notes are amazing when I scroll down here and I saw you know, here's links to all your guests, the resources and books in case I missed something I think you missed the Stephen King book that the one will no good point. And the other thing I noticed was and I thought it was really cool. We didn't mention this earlier. I thought it was interesting that the first pot sponsor spot was a tease for the sponsor was like we're gonna give you a little bit about the sponsor, but I'm gonna tell you more a little later. So it it got you introduced to the sponsor, but also made you kind of want to hear the end of that story in the middle of your your episode. And what I thought was really interesting about this is I put in my original notes. You don't have a link to your sponsor in your show notes. I was like, wow, that is a classic example of sidebar blindness because there's a giant. There's a giant thing out here for the sponsor, and I was like, wow, I totally missed that the first time,

Erik K. Johnson  50:12  
which takes up about a third of the column divided into three columns, the sponsors, one column.

David Jackson  50:19  
Yeah. And then the other thing that it took me a second to figure out and I think it's just because everybody says their name fast is I thought your company was no before, like, no big enough or something like that. And it finally, somewhere in there. I was like, Oh, they're saying no. Before like before the word and somewhere in there, you said no, before phishing test, and I went to that link, and I thought I'd let you know that's, that's not working right now. So that's something I'm sure you'd want to know. But it was just something that Eric has that just my dirty ears I need to clean out or did you did you get no before the first time you heard I

Erik K. Johnson  50:57  
have given me you would have given me 10 tries I would not have been able to spell no before the way no before is spelled and k n o WB e number four, I wouldn't die would never have come up with that. Yeah. So yeah, I completely agree there. My thoughts on the website. I'm a function over form kind of guy. That was my downfall in architecture school, I always made it work, but it didn't look really pretty. I love your website in the fact that it's very clean. But it's 100% useful. Like there's no fluff on here. Like I don't have to read through seven paragraphs of crap. I go here, I get an amazing piece of artwork, I get you and your story, your your background, I get the player and the audio right there. And then I get links to everything you mentioned. Like it's, it is all useful content. There's no fluff on here at all. It. It does. But it's not empty, either. It's full of fantastic, useful information. That was all talked about during the episode. I think the the podcast episode page itself, it looks great.

David Jackson  52:03  
Yeah. And that's this was one of those were much like the audio that I was like, well, there's really nothing here to pick apart. And then I came over here, and I was like, Okay, we're cool. And then as soon as I scrolled down and saw all the links, I was like, because that's really when I've talked to different people, like what do you want in description, you want a paragraph that kind of explain what we're talking about. And then the links to anything that anybody mentioned. And I was like, well, there we go. And we're done. Because there's a ton of links here, and links to the guests and everything like that, plus the links to subscribe, which are great, because you don't want people having to search for that. That's one of our goals is to get people to follow and subscribe. So

Erik K. Johnson  52:39  
a lot of people ask me what should be included in shownotes? And and how long should they be? And I always recommend, think about your listener, why are they coming to your show notes in the first place, they're probably coming to get more information of something that you mentioned on the show. So put that information on your show notes. You don't I don't need a transcription, I don't have any interest in reading it. I listen to podcasts. So just put the information on there that I need. And that's what you've done. And Dave says, Your shownotes should serve the purpose of getting you some Google juice. Yeah. And I think the way you've linked and tagged in your show notes here is fantastic in terms of link backs, to other blog posts in and people and things like that Google should should love this page, I would think.

David Jackson  53:32  
Yeah, it's one of the things where the more words, and by that I don't mean transcriptions, the more words that make sense, you know, the better. So you can add a little more here. But in terms of like, this isn't really it's we have to figure out is my are my shownotes, a blog? Or are they just a description for the podcast, and sometimes I try to combine both. But I just love the fact, Eric was saying, in terms of functionality, if I was looking for something here, it's everything's listed here. So I just thought that he did a great job on that. And it's like Eric said, it's clean. Everything's there. I don't see anything here that I'm like, oh, but you know, where's the such and such, and you even have a transcript, which is those people that like transcripts, it's there, which is great. So the job on on that and I understand in the future, you're gonna be doing a new website, which will be even more fun. But did you have any final questions for us?

Perry Carpenter  54:23  
So I guess, biggest question I've had, we hit on a little bit, which is the sound design, audio quality and all that. From a from a vocal standpoint. How's the audio quality on the microphone? And how's the vocal performance because I'm a guy when I just talk I talked pretty flat. So I do try to engage a little bit as I record these things, but am I doing too much or too little of that is the question I always have.

Erik K. Johnson  54:51  
I really enjoy your vocal performance, especially at the beginning. Because I felt like you were right there with me. You're kind of leaning in and you were it was very powerful. Personal and and very much your style. So it wasn't like you were announcer or trying to be DJ or anything like that, there were a couple parts where the music got a little loud for me and started to drown you out a bit. So make sure that that's tucked under enough, the music should be enough to kind of support what you do, and not distract from what you do. So I shouldn't really notice the music, but it should enhance my experience. So keep an eye on that. Otherwise, I thought your vocal performance was great. I thought the way that your tonality and, and pitch changed from as you were narrating to when you were interviewing, I could tell the difference between those two. And so that made that stand out nicely as well and kind of helped me follow along.

David Jackson  55:50  
Yeah, I thought, as Eric mentioned, the narration especially was something where I could tell you were putting effort into it without trying to be the cheesy NPR person. Like I you know, you weren't trying, you weren't going for that, but you didn't want to just kind of sound like, well, in the next clip, we're gonna talk that it was like, you know, an actual like, Okay, I want this to sound cool. And it's crisp, and to the point and an Off we go. But no, I thought that was fine. So great. Thanks. Yeah, I think the only thing if I had to is we kind of summarize here, I would think about making it a little more obvious as to what the show is about a guy both Eric and I, I see here that caught that phrase where cybersecurity meets humanity, I was like, that's really kind of, I think, what you're going for, in a way.

Perry Carpenter  56:37  
So there's a slogan that I have on some of my creative that that you've not seen, and it says cybersecurity, humanity and all the fun bits in between. There you go, that I think summarizes it pretty well that I'll probably just put in the description at some point and tag on any artwork that's going to be at a scale that's large enough to read. That's that's the problem with podcast art. In my experiences, it gets shrunk down so much on phones that we have a tagline or additional words, it's really difficult to make

David Jackson  57:04  
out. Well, it may be a case sometimes a lot of taglines don't make it to the artwork, because you have the name of the show and giant font there. But it's more for the title of the show, because that's searchable, where the artwork, you know, the title on the artwork is not but other than that I like I said I would have maybe, you know shrunk down the intro a bit and got to the meat and potatoes a bit. I understand why it's not because the production there. When you spend two hours on a production piece, it's two minutes. Last thing you want to do is go Yeah, it's out of here.

Perry Carpenter  57:34  
Yeah, I've been guilty of letting those grow long. And I keep them in for a couple reasons. One is if you're watching a television documentary, sometimes they have those kind of montage is at the very beginning as well as they're rolling credits. There's no credits here, that got no good excuse there. But the other thing is, I can immediately pull that pull that out and throw it in as a headliner that I put on social media, the day that it drops into a commercial where everybody feels featured, they feel the spotlight shift to them. It's got decent production values with the music, it kind of generates a little bit of excitement. But I don't want to do all of that work just for a headliner, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So I need to find music that times better. I need to get music that's like 6060 to 75 seconds rather than two and a half minutes.

David Jackson  58:22  
Yeah. And my only other worry is there was zero mention besides the fact that the beginning you said I'm kind of behind. I've got a lot of projects, I'm working on a book. That's the only way I would know you're an author. So if the goal was to get you more speaking and maybe a few more book sales somewhere, we got to work a little more you in here. Just let people know.

Perry Carpenter  58:42  
So that's a good point. I'm guilty of believing that people know more about me than then they probably do. But yeah,

David Jackson  58:49  
I think there was a part of that just for the whole show. Because the intro kind of I felt like you assumed I'd listened to the show before because the of the intro and all this stuff and you know, not getting even Carl. Yeah, 10 calls a callback. Right. There we go. Awesome. Eric, any final thoughts on the show?

Erik K. Johnson  59:06  
I loved it. I thought it was it was very well put together. Excuse me, with regard to your actualities. Just make sure we can follow along without our scorecard. You know, the the benefit of a television show having that that string of montage is together as I have the benefit of the picture and I go, Oh, yeah, that's officer Jones. And that's Betty Sue the waitress and oh, there's There's Mike the gardener. You know, I know I can see them. And so it helps me put a face to a name. Were going through the audio and all of those clips I kind of get lost. That's the only thing and then restructure that intro a little bit. Other than that I thought the show rock that was very well put together and and I thought it was I thought it was a joy to listen to appreciate it. Awesome. Well,

David Jackson  59:55  
there you go. Another episode in the can without anybody crying so that's beautiful. You can find me Cartier

Erik K. Johnson  1:00:01  
edited out in the middle there. I mean, we let her he composed himself and then right back

David Jackson  1:00:06  
if you'd like to be reviewed just go out to podcast review You can find me at school of podcasting comm Eric where can we find you?

Erik K. Johnson  1:00:15  
Find all my good stuff over at podcast talent

David Jackson  1:00:19  
and pairing what website are we going to plug?

Perry Carpenter  1:00:22  
Yeah, well we'll plug eighth layer insights website because that does have a link over to Apple podcasts and other find podcast hosting places. That is what the number eight

Erik K. Johnson  1:00:31  
eight th eight layered insights.

David Jackson  1:00:34  
And again, if you'd like to get reviewed, simply go out to podcast review show calm. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you again real soon with another episode of the podcast review show.

Podcast Rodeo Announcer  1:00:51  
This podcast is part of the power of podcasting, network minded and power of changing the world one download at a time.

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